By David Parker, Wrestling Observer
Here is the latest edition of the Wrestling Observer Radio mailbag where we post some of the questions asked during weekly Observer audio shows. Want to know if something’s been asked? These will be a good place to start. If you want to hear more questions and insight from Observer audio several times a week, subscribe now!
Questions are asked by Bryan Alvarez or Mike Sempervive and are in bold, and primarily answered by Dave Meltzer unless otherwise noted.
How much did Undertaker changing to the American Badass gimmick affect his drawing power? How did Taker and Vince view the gimmick change? Do you think turning him back was overdue?
DM: Turning him back was something they had to do. The thing was that I think they felt that the supernatural Undertaker had run its course, and they tried to make him into a real person, but the thing is that the people really did not want Undertaker as a real person. They wanted him as a supernatural. I thought the Badass gimmick was kinda of a cool gimmick.
MS: Yeah, I thought it was the right place at the right time (inaudible).
DM: People wanted the old Undertaker back very quickly. Not right away, but very quickly. The Badass gimmick, had he done it now and not turned back, I don’t think Undertaker would’ve had anywhere near the aura that he had the last ten years or so. Did it hurt his drawing power? Yes, I think it did. He became one of the guys more than he was when he was Undertaker with the other (gimmick).
I read Terry Funk attacked Dusty Rhodes..
DM: Okay, this is the Dusty Rhodes-Harley Race world title match in Orlando, where Dusty had lost the title, so this is a true story.
…Terry Funk had attacked Dusty Rhodes before the match and broke his arm (DM: Yes.). Dusty was given the option of not (wrestling), but because he owed it to the fans, he wrestled (DM: Yes.) Dusty lost the title when he backdropped Harley Race over the top rope and got DQ’ed.
DM: Yes, that is what happened. They changed the world title not just (by) a broken arm by Terry Funk, but in fact it was a title can change hands on a DQ finish. They did not publicize the title can change hands on a DQ finish outside of when the clip was shown in Florida because the rest of the NWA really didn’t like the idea that (they) did a DQ finish in a world title change, so nobody talked about it, but in fact that is what happened.
MS: I can understand Sam Muchnick. You’re getting paid, or you have a reason for doing this, and they approve it, and it’s okay, but it’s up to the local promoter to come up with a finish. WIth that, I’m assuming all of that was to protect Dusty Rhodes. You have all of this…
DM: Yeah. Dusty Rhodes was the superhero, and the deal was that they had gone so long with Dusty challenging that Eddie Graham just…they didn’t have the approval to put the belt on Dusty, but Eddie Graham got whatever it is permission. Eddie Graham was a power broker anyway and was like, “Look. We (have) had him chase the title for four years now, and people were just starting to get tired of it.” It wasn’t working anymore. They had seen him challenge him how many times in all (of) these cities, so it was like he’s just gotta win, but the problem is if you win and lose it a week later, it’s better off not even doing it because then people go, “Oh man. We waited all (of) this time, and then he went and blew it.”
So they created this scenario where they put so many layers on it: the broken arm, the DQ, the fact that he still wrestled that afternoon. They had this whole thing to where it was the idea that the odds were just too great, and you cannot expect Dusty to have retained in that situation, and even then, Harley couldn’t beat him. It was a freaking fluke-ass thing with the idea that then people would pay and now that Dusty could beat Harley in the rematch. So that’s why it was done, but outside of Florida, the idea that you changed the world title on a DQ in that era. Munchnik still had his promotion, but he was not running the NWA. This is 1979, and Munchnik had stopped booking the champion in about 1975, but had it been Munchnik….
MS: (Inaudible) then who was the…
DM: Jim Barnett was the booker, and Barnett let anyone do whatever they wanted, which a lot of people were very negative. The promoters liked Barnett because he didn’t say, “Hey, you’re doing DQ’s every night. Our champion needs to win.”
MS: Well, I’ll say this: if they would’ve used that from Eddie Graham as a template for Kerry Von Erich and Tommy Rich and other people that had these very short reigns or did it like if Steve Rickard, “Look, here’s the deal. If you feel as though you want to change your championship, technically, we can’t stop you, but if the media finds out about it, we’ll fine you some huge amount, but (inaudible).”
DM: Yeah, but how can you do that? They did the thing in New Zealand and Signapore in 1984, I think.
MS: Yeah, for Rickard, but if they had at least a template of “Look, we don’t approve of this, but if you’re going to do it, do it in a way where it doesn’t look stupid,” where again because Tommy Rich in five days, that ended up just hurting him.
DM: I thought that hurt him greatly.
MS: Yeah, big time there. The Kerry Von Erich thing was if the story was told where he was attacked and there was a reason he lost it instead of just he finally makes this struggle, he wins it, and then now what, which is what seemed to happen after that.
DM: Yeah, three weeks later. I lived in Dallas when that happened, and they went in there and they said it was a sumo referee, which it wasn’t, and he got screwed by a bad decision, but Flair and Kerry was still a good card afterwards, but I know the one where I really knew it was like when Flair and Kerry worked the Christmas show in 1984, which was the big rematch coming off the stadium where they did the 32,000, and they did 15,000.
Now, that sounds really good, but then, I remember thinking, “Man, how do you not sell out and turn people away?” because I was going to Reunion Christmas the year before; I had already moved back by then, but I went to Reunion Christmas the year before, and that thing was sold out so far in advance, and that was with Flair and David, and Thanksgiving, without even Flair on the card, when it sold out and all of those people were turned away, so the fact that you would have Flair and Kerry, which is the biggest match possible, and you didn’t sell out, that told me that the edge was off, and it was.
Has any company ever tried to promote a wrestling product aimed at what would be perceived as a highbrow demographic? If not, is there any reason why this hasn’t been done, (presenting) stories more complex that adults would find appealing or even present wrestling as a legitmate sport, as they do in Japan?
DM: A lot of guys in the old days. Florida and St. Louis certainly.
MS: Yeah, I was gonna say. St. Louis was the epitome of that when it came to nicknames, moves, and all (of) that stuff. They seemed to be…
DM: St. Louis and All Japan were very similar. They (were) not identical by any means, but there (were) similarities between the two of them. I can’t say St. Louis ever tried to promote highbrow wrestling, but they very much tried not to insult their audience, and they really tried not to lie to their audience. That was a big one. You had to lie, because they would never admit wrestling wasn’t real in those days, but it was always like, “Don’t lie to your audience,” and when it came to substitutions…sometimes it frustrates me, because I will look and of course being friends with Larry Matysik and everything, I know how they were doing stuff, and the way they booked and everything, they did not book with the idea their audience was a lowbrow audience. I remember the thing was “We were a B audience. Not a C audience, a B audience, but not an A audience either,” so that’s what they tried. They definitely in the original Wrestling at the Chase, where they were at the Corasan room, that was as close to an A audience as wresting ever got in this country.
If you ever watched the clips, it was like a ballroom with a thousand people for the TV tapings. The big shows were still at the arena, but that was suit and tie and fancy dresses, and it really was. If you ever see the tapes, and some of them exist, if you go up, I’ll give you one to look for: it’s Pat O’Connor against Lorenzo Parente. which is also a hell of a match, you’ll really get a kick out of how great Pat O’Connor and Lorenzo Parente were.
I know it’s on the Internet because (when) Lorenzo Parente died, I watched the match; look at the audience and Joe Garagiola doing the announcing, who was a very famous sportscaster and ended up being more famous when he left, but even then he was a pretty highbrow guy because he was a broadcaster for the (St. Louis) Cardinals at the time and a famous baseball player. Not a good baseball player, but famous because of his personality.